The Communism Thread
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Swali
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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:21 pm    Post subject: The Communism Thread
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The Project

This thread is for a personal project of mine. Iím trying to make a working model of Communism. Now, before you go off like Ams did about how thatís impossible, keep in mind that the real Communist nations we have seen are not examples of working Communism (or perhaps a better word is Socialism?). Theyíre more of an example of what not to do. So, Iím asking for your cooperation. So I make sure that I donít get a bunch of undesirable replies to this thread, Iím going to set down the rules first:

1. All posts are to be on the topic of Communism. A post is to include one problem with Communism. Then, I will answer that post with a reply of how the system would change to solve that problem.

2. I will only take one problem at a time. Once a problem has been posted, I would ask that everyone would please refrain from posting until I have posted a solution. Also, please include only one problem in a post and post only a problem.

3. Once I have replied to a problem, feel free to post your own problem.

4. If you have questions about this project, do not post it in the thread. Please, PM me or e-mail me at thewiz35@hotmail.com. Iím trying to keep this thread exclusive to the project. Other questions that would present a problem to the system are welcome, however.

5. When posting a problem, please first read the current model. I donít want a problem given thatís already covered by the current system.

6. If you have a suggestion as to a solution to a problem, please PM me or e-mail me at the above address. But, when giving a suggestion to a solution, please keep in mind that Iím trying to make working Communism(or Socialism), not Democracy or other forms of government. I donít want someone requesting ďYou should have the leader voted for by a 2/3s majority, with a Senate!Ē

7. Please, do not be general in your problems. Name your exact concern so that I may have a better of an idea as to what you mean.

Iím sure these rules will evolve as the project evolves.

The Current Model

The current model is an evolving and changing model, based on the problems that you present for me to solve. As a problem is solved, the solution will be applied to the model. The model will be updated with every solution to every problem presented to me. The current model is:

Basic Government: I have not come up with a basic government structure for my model, except that it will be a global government and that it would be some form of bureaucracy, but I havenít thought about this, yet.

Economy: Economically, all people are equal (hence, Communism). The leader/s in this system are no exception. There would be no White House or similar structure for the governing body to live in. Instead, all people will live in a similar housing structure, which must meet government regulations. All goods and services will be available to everyone everywhere at any given time, due to the abolishment of currency, since money leads to greed and unbalance. This allows for a free exchange of consumer goods at no cost. Things that were not available to people before are now available to everyone. This also eliminates the need for taxes, since there is no longer a thing as government spending or normal spending, for that matter. A person no longer needs to care about income, only required to do their allotted work time. To make sure that people are not unhappy with their work, they are free to pursue whatever career path they desire, permitting that they meet the standards for such a career.

Civil Rights: At the moment, most things are legal, and only common law exists.

Political Freedoms: A career in politics is available to everyone, just as is any other job. However, political campaigns and voting are outlawed. Instead, people are appointed, as they would be at any other job, by credentials and education.

Now, hereís your part. Right now, I have a meager system that needs to be added to. I ask that you put before me a problem, and Iíll get on solving it right away.
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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:25 pm    Post subject:
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Prevent hardliners from the old government from retaking the country.
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Swali
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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:32 pm    Post subject:
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OK, I guess I didn't cover this.

I want the end result to be the system AFTER it's instated. As in, don't expect me to solve the problem of instating the system yet. I'd prefer the system be made and explored until there can be no more and I'm satisfied that the model would work if applied.

So, if you could, please only present problems of the system itself. This means just problems with the system, not problems of how it is going to be put there or how it will stay there. I would be glad to answer these questions, but I'm not so worried about them at the moment. I don't expect this system to ever see use, so I don't really care about how it would be brought to use.
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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:20 pm    Post subject:
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Well, I think i now something...

Well, since ,in this model, the country has no currency, then how, exactly, might you keep the people from merely bartering for everything, thus eliminating the point of not having Currency?

That is, eventually some type of Currency would have to be created, such as 5 chickens equals Free TV repairs for a year, or something along those lines?

So basicaly, I believe that not having Currency is impossible, as the People will merely begin trading goods for services, and Vice-versa.
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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:34 am    Post subject:
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That's simple. In Communism, all business is government controlled. In a Communist system with currency, prices never change, because wages never change. You're thinking that Communism has a system of Free Trade. It doesn't. Since the government fully controls all business, sets the prices to nothing, and abolishes currency, you have effectively abolished the need for bartering.
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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:57 am    Post subject:
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I don't see how a citizen can be motivated to help his country if he can't suceed in life and become rich. It's human nature to be selfish. To serve a community is to give up personal desire, and no one can do that. Therefore, communism doesn't work. In a perfect world, it would be great. However, you say that the USSR wasn't an example of communism; you're right, because communism can't be enacted in a greedy world.

Also, a free eco system like you are proposing would not work. Humans are imperfect and therefore are only capable of imperfect things. People would want more. They would steal and fight over it.

How would you combat this?
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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:58 am    Post subject:
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Communisim is nothing more than an idea. People will always think they are better than another person and therefore would believe that they deserve more. It's basic human instinct. Give it a rest - it'll never happen. Ever.
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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:39 pm    Post subject:
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They do have valid points. You would need to be rewarded for more work. Withought some way of becoming better or richer than your neighbor you'll never be satisfied. I feel it would be cool if everyone lived on the same scale, but imagine if the governments money hit rock bottom. Everybody would be living in shacks. I don't think a communism will ever work correctly. But keep trying, you may find away. Be a little more optimistic Nubis.

But also I'd be motivated to work for my country, Nevin, if the only way I'd get food is by working....It's kinda true in a free trade society as well. No work- No eat
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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:10 pm    Post subject:
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In response to Nevin:

Ideally, the practice of this system of working without pay is that you are entitled to work in whatever you wish, provided you are capable of such work. However, you are correct that people are greedy. Yet, this system limits the ability to realize greedy desires. For example, the leaders of the community get no special benefits of being the leaders of said community. I have also found that a singular leader is impossible. Without multiple peoples enacting the wishes of the vast majority, the one person would be capable of enacting his or her own wishes without limitation.

Next, business is controlled by the government. There would be a government organization devoted to keeping tabs on who is working and who is not. A household without at least one person acting as a provider would not receive any benefits beyond shelter and food (needs that are basic to all humans, and therefore undeniable to anyone). A household that does not have a provider would only receive basic needs that include water, electricity (used to prepare food), etc.

As such, to feed the insatiable wants of the human condition, you are required to work for such wants.

Next, in a system without currency and prices on goods, stealing is redundant. All goods are available to anyone who works. The only condition in which a person would steal is if they refuse to work, in which case the offender receives some sort of punishment, like jail time. Of course, progressive thinking would compel me to replace things like jail with social policies in education and welfare (not the monetary welfare, but human welfare) as an alternative to enforcing the law. Preventing crime would be a better solution.
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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:16 pm    Post subject:
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In response to Ravik:

In this system, the government money never hits rock bottom, because there is no money. All goods are free.

Now, to become better and richer than your neighbor, all you have to do is work and go to whatever store you want, then check out (for free) with whatever good you were seeking.
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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:33 pm    Post subject:
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Swali, how could free goods work? There simply aren't enough to give to everyone. Someone will always have more than the other. If you try to keep it equal, people will steal more than they are allotted to get. That's the poit i was trying to make...sorry if I didn't explain it enough. =/

Look at today...people don't even want to work. Communism doesn't make up for the human imperfection, and that is any system with us as a factor is never, ever going to work out like you want it to. You can't expect people to want to be equal in status.
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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:28 pm    Post subject:
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If people were raised knowing that they were equal to everyone, no better, no worse, then that would eliminate much of the stealing. However, as you have said many times, people do have greed to them no matter what sometimes. That would be the issue I would adress, how to stop greedy people from being greedy, it won't be perfect. (Sorry this post might not say what i meant it to, I was IM'ing, so i wasnt concentrating)
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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:46 am    Post subject:
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Ravik Shadowstalker wrote:
They do have valid points. You would need to be rewarded for more work. Withought some way of becoming better or richer than your neighbor you'll never be satisfied. I feel it would be cool if everyone lived on the same scale, but imagine if the governments money hit rock bottom. Everybody would be living in shacks. I don't think a communism will ever work correctly. But keep trying, you may find away. Be a little more optimistic Nubis.


I'm sorry, but you can't be "optimistic" when dealing with things like forms of government. You don't have the pleasure of hoping it'll all work out. So consider my opinions and thoughts to be outside of the realm of optimistic or pesimistic, but rather, REALISTIC.

Ravik Shadowstalker wrote:
If people were raised knowing that they were equal to everyone, no better, no worse, then that would eliminate much of the stealing. However, as you have said many times, people do have greed to them no matter what sometimes. That would be the issue I would adress, how to stop greedy people from being greedy, it won't be perfect. (Sorry this post might not say what i meant it to, I was IM'ing, so i wasnt concentrating)


People can't be raised to know something. They can be taught to think that way, but it just doesn't happen. And because teaching is all relative to the mind, you can never expect to have a society where the people all agree that they're equal. The United States is a perfect example. We preach all day long that everyone is equal yet we live in a society where certain groups of people are frowned upon or completely squandered (anyone care to take a guess as to who I'm referring to?).

Communisim is too idealistic to work. It relies on a society where people forget that they are people. They have to neglect the basic instinct that survival is the number one priority. Because in the case of Communisim, the first priority is doing one's part, not bettering themself. I'm sorry, but I just could not live in something as rediculous as a Communist society. If I do the extra, I better get more than Joe Schmoe. If I am placed in a position of leadership, I expect there to be some incentive to hold such responsibility. That doesn't mean I'm better than someone else, just that I'm contributing more than the next person and since I'm putting more in, I deserve to get more out.
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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:12 pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
The United States is a perfect example. We preach all day long that everyone is equal yet we live in a society where certain groups of people are frowned upon or completely squandered (anyone care to take a guess as to who I'm referring to?).


The United States is based on the premise that we are born with equal rights and opportunity. What you do with that opportunity is a different story.

Quote:
They have to neglect the basic instinct that survival is the number one priority. Because in the case of Communisim, the first priority is doing one's part, not bettering themself.


You contradict yourself with those two sentences. You first say that the basic instinct of survival is the first priority, but then go on to say that bettering yourself is your number one priority.

Quote:
If I do the extra, I better get more than Joe Schmoe.


If I remember correctly, you don't get more for extra work in a capitalist society, either. Have you ever seen Office Space (I know it's a comedy, but it's very true)? The main character says, "I work a bit harder, push a few more units and Initech makes that much more money. But, do I ever see another dime?" No, he doesn't. Also, do you think Bill Gates (who makes billions) does as much work as...oh, say...a teacher? He does barely any work at all, making his billions, while a teacher at best can make $50,000 a year, who works five days a week with some of the longest hours.

Nubis, your views of capitalism are diluted and wrong. The only way you get more money for more work is commission, and most jobs have set salaries.
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Nubis Serin
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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:53 am    Post subject:
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Swali wrote:
Quote:
The United States is a perfect example. We preach all day long that everyone is equal yet we live in a society where certain groups of people are frowned upon or completely squandered (anyone care to take a guess as to who I'm referring to?).


The United States is based on the premise that we are born with equal rights and opportunity. What you do with that opportunity is a different story.

Quote:
They have to neglect the basic instinct that survival is the number one priority. Because in the case of Communisim, the first priority is doing one's part, not bettering themself.


You contradict yourself with those two sentences. You first say that the basic instinct of survival is the first priority, but then go on to say that bettering yourself is your number one priority.

Quote:
If I do the extra, I better get more than Joe Schmoe.


If I remember correctly, you don't get more for extra work in a capitalist society, either. Have you ever seen Office Space (I know it's a comedy, but it's very true)? The main character says, "I work a bit harder, push a few more units and Initech makes that much more money. But, do I ever see another dime?" No, he doesn't. Also, do you think Bill Gates (who makes billions) does as much work as...oh, say...a teacher? He does barely any work at all, making his billions, while a teacher at best can make $50,000 a year, who works five days a week with some of the longest hours.

Nubis, your views of capitalism are diluted and wrong. The only way you get more money for more work is commission, and most jobs have set salaries.


What are you saying, that people who live a different life than "normal" are not entitled to their birth-rights? It sure as hell sounds like it.

Secondly, if you'd care to read my middle passage one more time, this time paying perfect attention, you'll see that it made much sense. I said survival is the number one priority in life, but in Communism, it's not. Communisim's main priority is having people do their equal share - it could care less about someone striving to make themself better. Learn to read if you're going to insult me.

Last, I used to work in a place EXACTLY like you see in the movie "Office Space." Yes, there is a small level of reality in the movie, but as you said, it's a comedy aimed at poking fun at the mundane life of an office worker. It has no base in this discussion so I'd please ask you to leave it out. The amount of work you do has nothing to do with the complexity of work. For example, I could be out on the fields doing manual labor or I could sit in a swank office managing a corporation. Either way, I'm doing a lot of work. Who said manual labor is the standard for work?

If anyone has a "diluted and wrong" sense of capitalism, it's you my friend. You're preaching to the choir on this one. I worked on commission at Sears this summer. Sure there's the possibility to make a lot of money, but you can't guarantee sales. I'd rather take a salary over a commission any day - which is why I'm looking forward to my campus job. And correction, most jobs have set WAGES. Salary and wages are two different things. But I'm sure you already know that. Wink If I do more work on a salary/wage paying job, my talent will be recognized and I can look forward to a raise or promotion. THAT is how doing more work equals more reward. No one would work if there wasn't the opportunity to advance.

Read up some more before you take on the big dogs. Wink
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