Carida Discussion
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Keeramak
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Joined: 19 Apr 2006
Posts: 120

 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Carida Discussion
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I'm completely confused on this new fighter deployment. Honestly, it doesn't make sense. You dont send 5 ships up against an ESD! That is utterly stupid and no one will win the Empire with that kind of system!

Last edited by Ams Jendob on Tue May 23, 2006 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 11:35 am    Post subject:
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Actually, Keeramak, you were outclassed to begin with... a bunch of fighters packing a laser cannon pointed each way will not do anything against a ship capable of absorbing near-lightspeed impacts from three Imperator Star Destroyers. Also, CMAC was tired of having to compile results for 30 ships at once, let along several hundred thousand. It's not changing. And frankly people, you need to get off the fighter schtick. They really are not effective against capital ships alone, with the possible exception of bombers and B-Wings.

Cray, kindly compile the results. I need to recuse myself from the act since I am personally involved in combat.

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Crazed says:
water is really cat piss
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob--Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps this petty pace... says:
ROFL.
VvD says:
Its good with some Soy Sauce
Crazed says:
...cat piss?

Solo - the Reckless Corellian says:
FISH SEX

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/HSolo29/ford-drunk.jpg
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Keeramak
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Joined: 19 Apr 2006
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:43 pm    Post subject:
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Quote:
bunch of fighters packing a laser cannon pointed each way will not do anything against a ship capable of absorbing near-lightspeed impacts from three Imperator Star Destroyers.


Does this mean, 140,000 'bunch' of ships is pointless? Especially BLASTBOATS. According to the Thrawn trilogy, Thrawn used these to take down NR CAPITAL ships. Now, they weren't exactly ESDs, but! Thrawn didn't have twenty THOUSAND of them either.

As for fighting alone, 140,000 is a major threat. Especially with all these other capital battle cruisers covering for them. This battle is easily won, except with your system. Honestly, five ships rolling up to an ESD is suicide and no tactician can afford that. UNLESS, we were rich %#%$%#s like the Galactic Alliance, and have legions of Chancellors to back up on. Razz

The Ssi-Ruuvi, jammed comms. How the hell Nespis and your little Akula fleet found out, mystery.

The Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium and Stic Battlecruisers, firing the hell out this obease machine, yet only five ships rolled?!

Not only does my numbers count against you, but I had the element of surprise. But that doesn't matter in this battlesystem!

I see no where on these forums where an accurate battlesystem is posted. Updates yes, but who can keep track of all this?
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:48 pm    Post subject:
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Let me explain something... your 140,000 fighters would do BARELY over 1% damage to the shield integrity IF they all had perfect accuracy. Secondly, the specifications used by this RPG have basis in other offical RPG sources as well as canon figures. Now, just because everything that has come out of Lucas in recent years essentially says that fighters are worthless against capital ships without heavy ordnance, I've taken a lot of flak, but the information is there. As for the jamming, the requested roll was performed. The message got our prior to your jamming reaching the required strength to block.

Now, calm down before you cross the line.

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Alexus in a PM: I love you in a completely non sexual way.

Crazed says:
water is really cat piss
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob--Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps this petty pace... says:
ROFL.
VvD says:
Its good with some Soy Sauce
Crazed says:
...cat piss?

Solo - the Reckless Corellian says:
FISH SEX

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/HSolo29/ford-drunk.jpg
Han, off duty.
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Keeramak
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Joined: 19 Apr 2006
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:52 pm    Post subject:
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This would have been lovely to know before I even entered the battle.

Can we post this so the players can understand some "simple" battle system basics?

I bet if we asked half the players, they wouldn't know the first 5 steps in your system.
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Victor von Doom
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:53 pm    Post subject:
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First 5 Steps:

Send yours ships
Formation
Order of Battle
Thread
Battle.

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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject:
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http://swvii.swrpgs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=9142#9142

Keeramak, uh... Joke







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Crazed says:
water is really cat piss
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob--Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps this petty pace... says:
ROFL.
VvD says:
Its good with some Soy Sauce
Crazed says:
...cat piss?

Solo - the Reckless Corellian says:
FISH SEX

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/HSolo29/ford-drunk.jpg
Han, off duty.


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Brote Heckler
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:22 pm    Post subject:
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I agree with Keeramak, the system is rather dumb, it is horrible. In the epic battles of Star Wars where every last ship attacked at once, this system destroys that. I don't care if you ban me for displaying it, but it does and the Keeramak is right, I wouldn't even know the first five steps to a battle if I wasn't consistantly in one, your view is biased Ams's, its simply not a system for new members to play on unless it were better explained.
Also in the Star Wars universe, I happen to remember Luke Skywalker somewhere destroying an entire Imperator with a X-wing. Canonly its possible, because the rating for the weapons was toned down in this game from the canon figures, its not a good chance. But I would remind the forum of how the Yuuhzan Vong got past shields, by crashing ships into them. If the Keeramak attacked with many different ships in many different places on the shield I would think this would also apply. Just thought I would help the new kid out.

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Alex says:
it wont be a Brote-style
Alex says:
but...
Noo... not Neimodia, you Rebels how?! says:
I have a style named after me now?
Alex says:
lol

Crazed says:
*gets married, gives birth to children and dies*
From the desk of Reverend. Matthew from the COM our mascot Penguin all verdicts are finel! says:
lol

"Tare meus armo , EGO vadum crudus , quod rip meus pes , EGO vadum scream , tamen EGO mos nunquam trado U.R.I. quod EGO mos pugna ut nex , si ut est quis postulo exsisto."

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Alexus
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject:
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Also, no single fighter ever destroyed an ISD, ever. The only books that come near that are the X-wing series, and they were shit.
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I wonder what Moskau sounds like at double speed!
Alexus says:
...
Alexus says:
.....
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WOAH

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there's a lot of difference between me and VVD
Alexus - Tora! Tora! Tora! says:
about two feet
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LOL DILDOS
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Kalydon Skirata
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:31 pm    Post subject:
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It's a turned based battle system Brote, not real time.
And Star Wars has always used a squadron system similar to this.

You never hear, "all 140,000 ships swarm them"! You instead hear, Red and Blue squadrons attack or something along those lines. Star Wars characters have always broken up fleets into divisions and issued ordes to them seperately...and that is why there is a 5 unit limit. If there was no limit, the person with the biggest fleet would easily have the best chance of winning...even when it shouldn't be possible.
Battles would simply become a war of attrition rather than skill.

Gee, would I rather have an organized Endor styled battle, or an utterly chaotic and rather un-military styled battle of Coruscant?
Hmm, tough desicion. Which is more difficult for new people to play?

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Captain--Dark Trooper IV




"In five millennia, the Mandalorians fought with and against a thousand armies on a thousand worlds.

They learned to speak as many languages and absorbed weapons technology and tactics from every war.

And yet, despite the overwhelming influence of alien cultures, and the absence of a true home world and even species, their own language not only survived but changed little; their way of life and their philosophy remained untouched; and their ideals and sense of family, of identity of nation, were only strengthened.

Armor is not what makes a Mandalorian. Armor is simply a manifestation of an impenetrable, unassaliable heart. "

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Brote Heckler
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:49 pm    Post subject:
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The system we want away is this one, divisionial fleet protocal always gets mixxed into a battle. But that is what we are talking about here. We have a huge fleet attacking a single ship. Divisions are simply cut up fleets so you can manuver better, not to where you are limited to what ships can fire. I mean, come on, five ships get mixxed into the battle, A SPACE BATTLE. Blah, the forces would attack at once. At the battle of Corusant it WAS Chaos, didn't you see it? There were ships tangled everywhere attacking other ships. I saw it at the movies and on the game.
That was why Star Wars is epic, you watch these battles take place were it is ship against ship, if one ship has better ability then the other, that gets thrown out the door as it comes down the throat of its enemy. It crashes into other fighters as it moves at all speed, plowing into them and destroying them. Then it fires its payloads of missiles and first vollies of turbolaser, crashing into its prey. Boom, the missiles and hits pock all across the vessel. Suddenly, the counter attack, they become locked into a fight with one another, an immortal battle of the titans.
This system is more like, "well lets take five ships, fire a volley and wait to be attacked" and I wondered why the turned based affair of Star Wars failed. Rolling Eyes
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Grand Commodore Guru Bhuru/Commander, all of the DRWP navy



Alex says:
it wont be a Brote-style
Alex says:
but...
Noo... not Neimodia, you Rebels how?! says:
I have a style named after me now?
Alex says:
lol

Crazed says:
*gets married, gives birth to children and dies*
From the desk of Reverend. Matthew from the COM our mascot Penguin all verdicts are finel! says:
lol

"Tare meus armo , EGO vadum crudus , quod rip meus pes , EGO vadum scream , tamen EGO mos nunquam trado U.R.I. quod EGO mos pugna ut nex , si ut est quis postulo exsisto."

SPORE! The Fansite: http://www.sporefan.com/fhome.asp Will Wright is making the next myspace!


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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject:
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Well, Brote, if it were practical to do so in every single case, we would. But it's not. It was impractical with 15 ships, let alone several hundred with thousands of fighters.
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Alexus in a PM: I love you in a completely non sexual way.

Crazed says:
water is really cat piss
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob--Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps this petty pace... says:
ROFL.
VvD says:
Its good with some Soy Sauce
Crazed says:
...cat piss?

Solo - the Reckless Corellian says:
FISH SEX

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/HSolo29/ford-drunk.jpg
Han, off duty.
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Brote Heckler
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:03 pm    Post subject:
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Ams Jendob wrote:
Well, Brote, if it were practical to do so in every single case, we would. But it's not. It was impractical with 15 ships, let alone several hundred with thousands of fighters.


I would look over my idea then, one big dice roll for a whole class would make numbers useless for the sloth of the admin. Joke
_________________
Emperor Brote Heckler/Emperor of the Union of Republic Represented Worlds

Grand Commodore Guru Bhuru/Commander, all of the DRWP navy



Alex says:
it wont be a Brote-style
Alex says:
but...
Noo... not Neimodia, you Rebels how?! says:
I have a style named after me now?
Alex says:
lol

Crazed says:
*gets married, gives birth to children and dies*
From the desk of Reverend. Matthew from the COM our mascot Penguin all verdicts are finel! says:
lol

"Tare meus armo , EGO vadum crudus , quod rip meus pes , EGO vadum scream , tamen EGO mos nunquam trado U.R.I. quod EGO mos pugna ut nex , si ut est quis postulo exsisto."

SPORE! The Fansite: http://www.sporefan.com/fhome.asp Will Wright is making the next myspace!
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:06 pm    Post subject:
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Unless you don't want all of the same class to go at once, in which case, it falters.
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RPG Rules|Galactic Map

Holder of the 5,000th, 15,000th, 17,000th, 19,000th, and 22,000th posts
Alexus in a PM: I love you in a completely non sexual way.

Crazed says:
water is really cat piss
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob--Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps this petty pace... says:
ROFL.
VvD says:
Its good with some Soy Sauce
Crazed says:
...cat piss?

Solo - the Reckless Corellian says:
FISH SEX

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/HSolo29/ford-drunk.jpg
Han, off duty.
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Carnor Jax
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:10 pm    Post subject:
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Just to throw my two cents in, the only time fighters get their own individual rolls is when they have a PC Pilot, like me in the Third Battle of Corellia - I have expertely-trained fighter pilots tha dont question orders, so I got four seperate rolls for them in addition to the standard fighter rolls. At least, that is what I am assuming.

Either way, one normally has all classes of fighters attacking at once and usually at the same targets, whether they are at capitals or at individual starfighters... more often than not you will come up with the same result rolling for evasion and attack if you roll for all of them individually as opposed to getting a gross average roll (which is possible using certain RNGs coupled with Excel).

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Brote Heckler
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:27 pm    Post subject:
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Carnor Jax wrote:
Just to throw my two cents in, the only time fighters get their own individual rolls is when they have a PC Pilot, like me in the Third Battle of Corellia - I have expertely-trained fighter pilots tha dont question orders, so I got four seperate rolls for them in addition to the standard fighter rolls. At least, that is what I am assuming.

Either way, one normally has all classes of fighters attacking at once and usually at the same targets, whether they are at capitals or at individual starfighters... more often than not you will come up with the same result rolling for evasion and attack if you roll for all of them individually as opposed to getting a gross average roll (which is possible using certain RNGs coupled with Excel).


All of that I can some into three words: Mathematic Blah blah... Joke
_________________
Emperor Brote Heckler/Emperor of the Union of Republic Represented Worlds

Grand Commodore Guru Bhuru/Commander, all of the DRWP navy



Alex says:
it wont be a Brote-style
Alex says:
but...
Noo... not Neimodia, you Rebels how?! says:
I have a style named after me now?
Alex says:
lol

Crazed says:
*gets married, gives birth to children and dies*
From the desk of Reverend. Matthew from the COM our mascot Penguin all verdicts are finel! says:
lol

"Tare meus armo , EGO vadum crudus , quod rip meus pes , EGO vadum scream , tamen EGO mos nunquam trado U.R.I. quod EGO mos pugna ut nex , si ut est quis postulo exsisto."

SPORE! The Fansite: http://www.sporefan.com/fhome.asp Will Wright is making the next myspace!


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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:41 pm    Post subject:
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Which is the bulk of the battle system anyway. It's very number-intensive.
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RPG Rules|Galactic Map

Holder of the 5,000th, 15,000th, 17,000th, 19,000th, and 22,000th posts
Alexus in a PM: I love you in a completely non sexual way.

Crazed says:
water is really cat piss
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob--Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps this petty pace... says:
ROFL.
VvD says:
Its good with some Soy Sauce
Crazed says:
...cat piss?

Solo - the Reckless Corellian says:
FISH SEX

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/HSolo29/ford-drunk.jpg
Han, off duty.
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Nevin Antilles
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:26 pm    Post subject:
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Brote, you don't seem to understand something. When you send in 5 ships, the next 5 ships in the next turn attack in less than a minute later. It's all happening in roughly the same time. Additionally, it has practical grounds because we are NOT going to calculate hundreds of ships each turn. There's also no difference if we were to allow all ships to attack at once; the same potential for damage exists whether it's 20 ships on one turn or 5 ships over 4 turns. It's just a purely organization difference, and it actually gives you MORE control over your units' orders.
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god, your outlook would change if you would stop wearing pants

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Gavin Onasi
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject:
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Well the way it seemed Ams explained it to me... the enemy fleet responds after every group of 5 sent... no matter how many ships...
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Ams Jendob
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject:
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Okay, just to eliminate any confusion...


You have two fleets of ten each, split into groups A and B, each.

Admiral for A1 posts his orders. Admiral for B1 posts his orders. CMAC does the results as if BOTH ships went at the same time. THEN, you move onto to A2 and B2.
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Alexus in a PM: I love you in a completely non sexual way.

Crazed says:
water is really cat piss
Supreme Moff Ams Jendob--Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow, creeps this petty pace... says:
ROFL.
VvD says:
Its good with some Soy Sauce
Crazed says:
...cat piss?

Solo - the Reckless Corellian says:
FISH SEX

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v291/HSolo29/ford-drunk.jpg
Han, off duty.
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Gavin Onasi
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 7:57 pm    Post subject:
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alright, what if fleet A has 10 and B has 5?
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Arlyn
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 Post Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 8:01 pm    Post subject:
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Okay, so how long in RPG time does it take for all of Keeramak's ships to get a fire on the ESD?
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Brote Heckler
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 Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 4:06 am    Post subject:
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A very long time and if God forbid the ESD fire at ships in the next turn, you will find yourself with an even smaller fleet in one of the five. Cray doesn't seem to understand what I am talking about; you do loss out in this system if you have a bigger fleet to a ship with better weapons. Its boulderdash really, I am not kidding. That a whole fleet could be taken down by one ship with enough firepower, but it can under this system. If a huge fleet attacks A ship then that fleet should have an equal chance to fire at once to that ship firing at once.
Now Imperial fleets are huge compared to the movies, some people can't believe how big its getting and no one can comperhand how strong. Any system that favors strength over tact or number becomes an Imperial favoring system as the Alliance has never won against them either, and a deterrant to new players who want a faction. We all know there is no short supply of new players for faction control. I may be a windbag sometimes but this time I can see how unfair this system is and so can everyone else. So we trash it for a new system, a better system. We have heard two already and for those who don't understand Gavin's, its basically the same, exactly, to that of Ams's, the one we don't want. In fact his doesn't even address the problems we are talking about...
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Ams Jendob
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Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 4249
Location: Coruscant

 Post Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 11:59 am    Post subject:
Reply with quote

Actually, tactics play a major role. Just because some people don't know how to exploit weaknessnes doesn't mean it's a bad system.


EDIT: And since Carida has ended, there is no further need for discussion.
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Last edited by Ams Jendob on Thu May 25, 2006 1:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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